Posts by Anders Andersen

54

Things JW's and Atheists have in common

by juandefiero in

i was just thinking about something someone said on another thread.

to paraphrase, 'jw beliefs like there being no hellfire, immortal soul, the condition at death...have the ring of truth.'.

i realized, atheists believe these things too!.

Anders Andersen

@DJ, Thanks for the explanation.

I already assumed my views are quite limited by my JW upbringing and the information 'management' that comes with it. Unfortunately the J-C God seems harder to argue against than the JW God.

@Cofty, don't worry, I'm still a materialistic atheist ;-)

Like you I am convinced they process of how chemicals reacted and combined into something that we now classify as 'life' will be discovered someday.

@prologos, I was planning on starting a thread about JW God in/out of time and universe anyway. Maybe we should continue there when I do (but I am fine here too :-) )

And it's my understanding as well that the emptyness of the big nothing is likely to be oozing with energy fluctuations, and that the universe possibly sprang from those fluctuations. Apparently net energy in/of our universe = 0.

54

Things JW's and Atheists have in common

by juandefiero in

i was just thinking about something someone said on another thread.

to paraphrase, 'jw beliefs like there being no hellfire, immortal soul, the condition at death...have the ring of truth.'.

i realized, atheists believe these things too!.

Anders Andersen

@prologos,

Thanks for playing ball in a nice and polite way. I like it :-)

I consider the attempts to replicate abiogenesis crucial, but in MHO success would only prove there needs to be an agent to do it, no matter how remote the "operator"

They are crucial indeed. But scientists are not really trying to create the process of abiogenesis; that process already exists ;-)

What they are doing (according to my understanding) is trying to recreate the circumstances that (as evidence tells us) may have existed during our earth's long history, and see if this process occurs (or can occur) in these circumstances.

If they succeed, it is proven that given a specific set of circumstances organic life can 'spontaneously' start.

The role of a creator is then reduced to setting the correct circumstances and waiting for organic life to arise (as opposed to breathing life into matter to create life similar to the story of Adam)

All that their intelligence is used for is creating the circumstances in which life could start, but they are not creating life itself.

I agree with your statement that a creator is not bound by the laws of physics that govern our universe.

And maybe my views are still to narrowly based on my quite recent (5 months) JW mindset, but in my mind any proposed creator is at least somewhat a person: thinking, having a personality, coming up with the idea to start creating universe(s).

And the process of thinking is (even if we accept that it could take place without the existence of time) governed by some rules/laws.

Like the laws of physics in our universe make it possible for structured processes to exist, some laws must govern any structured process (like spiritual living and thinking, creating) or these processes would be impossible....

Accepting that this creator is not a person makes the whole discussion about a creator's (non-)existence a pointless one: some then choose to label the eternal origins of nature 'God', but they mean the same thing/process/entity as those not applying that same label.

So while we seem to agree that there is no difficulty in accepting that there is no beginning of 'everything' because it 'started' with an 'eternal something' (Creator in your case, whatever caused our universe in my case), I am still puzzled about how you view life and 'god'.

If god isn't alive and still created life....doesn't that mean life basically self-started anyway?

As you can see there's a lot I still want to learn about this. Please enlighten me :-)

54

Things JW's and Atheists have in common

by juandefiero in

i was just thinking about something someone said on another thread.

to paraphrase, 'jw beliefs like there being no hellfire, immortal soul, the condition at death...have the ring of truth.'.

i realized, atheists believe these things too!.

Anders Andersen

@prologos,

scientists are looking for explanations

Fair enough. You didn't seem to make the distinction between atheists and scientists so I didn't bother either.

I agree (and that was somewhat my point in my first reply to this topic) that JW processes tend to superficially mimic scientific processes. The big difference being that 1) JW invent a conclusion and then look for twisted ways to support it, where scientists study evidence and draw a conclusion afterwards, and 2) in science normally the conclusion is changed when new evidence is discovered, whereas JW can change their doctrine 180 degrees and have both positions supported by the same 'evidence'.

it has never been demonstrated, that the Universe created itself or that life arose spontaneously. Efforts to replicate he latter have failed so far, and examining the energy level of the former even on the smallest scale took great effort and ingenuity.

If the demonstration of something is needed to verify it's factual correctness or possibility, please provide some demonstration of the following:

1) a god popping into existence

2) a god being alive and acting

3) divine creation

Anyway, you missed my point about self-started life completely. Please pick one of the below positions that you can accept, or state something yourself.

God=life. God=eternal or self-started. Thus life=eternal or self-started.
There is no Creator. Thus life=eternal or self-started.
...

In my view, regardless of one's convictions, the conclusion is always that life self-started.

Just because many people choose to put label 'God' on the big unknown how/where life self-started, doesn't make it less self-started.

So to me it's strange that one could use 'life could never have self-started' as an argument against the other position.

107

Stephen Lett at our assembly today

by StarTrekAngel in

he delivered the most cultic piece of propaganda i've ever seen in an assembly.

wife typed up the whole thing.

i will be posting when i get a chance.

Anders Andersen

@BrandNew,

Spilling perfectly good beer is an instant DFing offense in my world....

8

Will the GB ever do this?

by why144000 in

jw
friends

hi, not sure if this has been covered.. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-13/peter-hollingworth-says-sorry-to-victims-child-abuse-brisbane/6939804.

i don't have much time for peter hollingworth.

he has always acted like a pompous prick when i have met him or seen him on tv however he humbled himself and made an apology for his actions and the actions of the church.. any bets on if the gb would ever do this?.

Anders Andersen

Nope.

Best they can do might be something like:

"Some brothers and sisters may have been too eager on concluding that all rumors about unclean conduct involving minors are apostate lies. However, Jehovah has used the GB during many years to warn parents to protect their children. Unfortunately some did not obey these wise words."

37

How the Internet is Destroying Mormonism

by slimboyfat in

interesting video, shame it wasn't about jws.

http://youtu.be/-1bdbkjbzzy.

what a would be your top 5 shocking things you found out about jws on the internet?.

Anders Andersen

@Millie210,

Can you explain about the Malawi non-issue?

54

Things JW's and Atheists have in common

by juandefiero in

i was just thinking about something someone said on another thread.

to paraphrase, 'jw beliefs like there being no hellfire, immortal soul, the condition at death...have the ring of truth.'.

i realized, atheists believe these things too!.

Anders Andersen

@DJ,

I agree. You use a lot of words though ;-)

I described my feeling of JW being 'evidence-driven' from my former still-in-JW point of view.

I now really know that are talking rubbish regardless of what evidence they think they have, and that their evidence is just unsubstantiated claims about unsubstantiated ancient claims...

54

Things JW's and Atheists have in common

by juandefiero in

i was just thinking about something someone said on another thread.

to paraphrase, 'jw beliefs like there being no hellfire, immortal soul, the condition at death...have the ring of truth.'.

i realized, atheists believe these things too!.

Anders Andersen

@prologos

Are atheists not convinced that the Universe made itself, that life is self-started?

Both theists and atheists must accept that life is self-started. Either because spiritual life self-started with God's existence, or because carbon-based life self-started.

So everyone in this universe must be convinced life self-started, in whatever form.

and they look for, manufacture (not faking) evidence to bolster their conviction, --through scientific research.

No, scientists are looking for explanations that fit the evidence already found.

And then they look for any and all evidence they can find to either confirm or dismiss the proposed explanation.

Scientists being both theists and atheists.

Do you honestly belief that all theist and Christian scientists really want to prove God doesn't exist? Scientists couldn't care less about that, because it's not a subject they investigate.

Or are you claiming all scientists are atheist? In that case you are very mistaken.

WT believers bolster their convictions bymanufactured data too.

Please please please tell me you were drunk when writing this.

I really hope you don't seriously think the scientific processes that brought you all technological advancements and all of human knowledge are the same processes that make the dishonest liars we call Watchtower make up their beliefs out of thin air...

If you do think that, please educate yourself on how the scientific process works.

54

Things JW's and Atheists have in common

by juandefiero in

i was just thinking about something someone said on another thread.

to paraphrase, 'jw beliefs like there being no hellfire, immortal soul, the condition at death...have the ring of truth.'.

i realized, atheists believe these things too!.

Anders Andersen

I have to agree with both Cofty/CodedLogic and SBF.

As far as religions go, I have always seen JW as being evidence-driven, as opposed to those all-vague-and-miraculous-spiritual religions. I took pride in knowing on what my belief was founded, while others just believe because they believe, or because it feels right.

I always knew JW can even back their religion up with scientific evidence (eg proving the flood, disproving evolution etc.)

In that respect, JW beliefs are very materialistic, like many atheist viewpoints.

A discussion between JW and atheist might be fact based (although the JW will not know any relevant facts, nor accept them if they contradict his beliefs).

A discussion between a non-JW theist and an atheist is basically a discussion between two-dimensional Flatlanders and 3D Earthlings: they are each having a discussion in completely different realms. The Christian theist will speak about revelation, personal conversion, knowing Jesus personally etc.etc. in a way a JW will never do.

On the other hand, JW have no idea what science is about (I know that now), and they believe in supernatural Magic SkyDaddy whose existence is completely unproven, and all kind of non-materialistic bullsh#t.

Anyway, I'm glad JW are somewhat (twisted) evidence driven: once I researched the contradicting evidence I was out. In other religions I would still be in based on having Jesus in my heart or something like that.

23

Your Favorite Poetry

by compound complex in

jw
friends

thank you, dear friends, for expressing your thoughts today on the importance of the arts in your lives.

many years ago, a number of threads were devoted to poetry, literature, even english grammar.

rather than resurrect an old thread -- usually with zero results -- i would like to introduce a new post, asking you to add some of your favorite verse.

Anders Andersen

@SBF,

Tried to find the LostLove poem. I can only find one by Robert Graves.

Is this the one you meant?

His eyes are quickened so with grief,
He can watch a grass or leaf
Every instant grow; he can
Clearly through a flint wall see,
Or watch the startled spirit flee
From the throat of a dead man.
...